http://marksayers.wordpress.com/2008/07/11/prophets-during-the-reign-of-queen-lindsey-lohan/

I didn’t really want this to be a discussion about prophecy and prophets, but it’s interesting to talk about it for a bit. Also, why did the formatting in my post stuff up, it wasn’t bold and it had paragraphs!! Anyway, like MS, I too am interested in what a prophet looks like today. Are they concerned with revelation and prophecy or do they play a role of “God’s mouthpiece” like the OT prophets? If prophecy is concerned with revelation, how much else is needed to be revealed? A teacher teaches what has already been revealed, but a prophet is in the business of revelation… with or without the spiritual gift of prophecy?? I was reading a summary about the gift and the person writing the article came to the conclusion that it’s no longer needed. I don’t know if I agree with that, I know people in YWAM use prophecy a lot on mission, but other than that, no one I know really. Even the stuff they prophecy about, it seems to show the person or the team the power of God rather than fruitful revelation, because sometimes they prophecy innocuous stuff. To me, these people aren’t prophets necessarily, they’re just using the gift of prophecy to hopefully glorify God and encourage one another.

When I use the term “cultural prophecy” I don’t mean it in a spiritual gift sense, but in a post-revelation sense. I would agree visionaries is probably a safer and more accurate term, but being a prophet is such a powerful parallel to the way God used ordinary people in the OT to speak as His mouthpiece. These aren’t just people who are well meaning, but rather actually are gifted in understanding, as Mark Sayers sayers, the pathos and pain of God. That’s why these OT people are prophets, they are confident to speak and reveal such vivid imagery to who God is, because they are filled with the Spirit. What is Paul is referring to in Ephesians 4? Is he being a prophet in Acts 17, or an evangelist? Or an Apostle? Or many?

The problem with the teacher-centric church is that we are stuck with the whole “Jesus will only let me do what has been done before” problem. By that, I mean people don’t know how to counter their own culture that isn’t Christian-branded, but rather is after God’s own heart and visionary (prophetic?). The teacher only reveals what has be already been revealed. I’m not advocating a filmmaker running a church over person trained in teaching, but I like thinking of the idea. The reason I go to watch a movie isn’t to be entertained, as such, but rather to see humanity from a different light and to seek truth from it. The best movies are the ones that are truthful to the fallen human condition, just like the best sermons are the ones that reveal our sin and show God’s “humanity”.

Reply to marty

‘visionaries’ is better both as a description and a title i reckon. or even missiologists if you want to go more technical.

I dont think shortsightedness or a false sense of attainment are the problem though. It more likely comes out of clericalism (rather than church as body). When ‘gospel work’ is the only work which has value then it is hard to fit filmmakers, politicians etc into the system.

I’m anti clericalism but all for teachers leading churches. I think that is the primary means God provides for the care, nourishment and protection of his flock (1 peter 5, 1 tim 3, Eph 4 and so on). This is how teachers serve as part of the body. And god has given them for this purpose (Eph 4:11-13).

The shift that many churches have to make is toward finding a way for the others in your list, the visionaries to serve and contribute to the building up of the body also.

Sounds like the missos at your church are doing the hard yards and making a good go at it! encouraging stuff…

Reply to reuben

Firstly, in terms of culture diversity, presenting the gospel to a Muslim culture in central Africa is going to be different to than presenting it to Manhattenites, well quite obviously.

In the former, we have a missionary couple from church who work with the Yawo in Malawi as part of Global Interaction, which used to be Australian Baptist Missionary Society. I tell you the name change, because I think that’s an important of who GIA have tried to present themselves in the last decade or so. This couple have worked in Africa for the past 10 years and they’ve basically written the only books ever in Yawo, including a translation of the bible (with a team of people, I think), a book of Yawo proverbs and I think they’re working on a dictionary. He’s also about to start writing a PhD on the Yawo worldview. This culture isn’t pre-Christian either, they definitely know of Christians, and Christians are seen as a negative thing. The way they teach the gospel is recognising the Muslim prophet Isa (Jesus), and teach the gospels of Isa (the bible) as superior to the teachings of Muhammad. So when a Yawo person recognises Isa as God, they become a follower of Isa, not a Christian. I found that kind of interesting, a well thought out and long-term solution created by missionaries. The stuff they have done could in the long-run turn a nominal Muslim culture into a Christian one, its created a new chapter in their culture.

But in our culture, post-culture, post-sin, I think Tim Keller put it quite well. Also point to Mark Sayers’ call for the need of cultural prophecy, or just prophecy in general. People who understand culture to the next level, like visionaries of the future and, critics of the present. Not preachers or teachers, more like “filmmakers, authors, musicians, journalists, politicians, humanitarians, even business leaders who you can tell posses a prophetic heart” as Sayers’ says. These people barely exist in congregations because the church has made no room for them. It’s a teacher-centric church that if a film maker, author, musician was to use their gifts, it would be under the authority of the teacher (or themselves be the teacher). What’s a congregation lead by a film maker? The church says that is DANGEROUS, but think of the world of possibilities that opens up! We need balance and we possibly need the church to lose a grip on “how much we’ve progressed” and more of a grip on how much more we’ve got to go.

Reply to marty

of course i have to reply: the kind of people who cant comment without having looked at the data

Reply to reuben

next 12 will be interesting…I do hope that you find work though marty!

Reply to reuben

Reply to marty

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Reply to Jason

Reply to SamCohen

Having thought a bit more I think you’ve put your finger on a bigger issue. Have a read of this:

Tim keller explains the gospel

And let me know what you think. I may turn this discussion into a post of its own - others weigh in if you’d like!

Reply to reuben