Objection, your honour!
OK, here is something experimental…might work…might not. hopefully it will be fun. In part that’s up to you!
What i’m proposing is a regular friday interactive post called ‘objection, your honour’.
i’ll pose a scenario and then an objection. And you can decide – is the objection sustained or overruled? if you want you can add to the objection or argue against it.
So here we go: first one…
the scenario is fantasy. everyone does it. kids do it. dungeons and dragons players do it. advertisers want us to do it…especially the ones who want us to believe that bathing in a pool of molten chocolate is going to be enjoyable.
the objection? well your honours… isn’t fantasy wrong? surely playing make-believe too much distorts our expectations of real life. Take an extreme example: porn gives men unrealistic expectations of women. Or surely you’d agree romantic novels do the same to women, right?
What do you think…
Overruled.
How far do you go down that line Reuben?
Everyone (well… the people who read this blog anyway) would agree that porn girl porn (romance novels) = unhelpful fantasy. But you are wanting to tar all fantasy with the same brush.
At the other end of the spectrum is speculation. Speculation is a kind of fantasy, where you consider paths untaken or plan (as best you can) for possible futures. This is part and parcel of being a moral being.
So I would argue you may want to refine your original statement to “some fantasy is wrong” and then spend time debating where the chalk line on the spectrum must be drawn.
Reply to Steve BoxwellHey, you totally stole my idea!
What are you talking when you say ‘fantasy’? Are you talking about a particular genre of literature or are you talking about ‘fantasising’?
Reply to TamiePS Love the idea for the post!
Reply to TamieThanks Tamie! and yes…well i thought the idea was interesting. so take it as a compliment…
Was thinking of the general concept of ‘fantasy’. Things your mind conceives of which have no connection to reality or something like that.
Reply to reubenOverruled? fair enough…
With these posts I’m overstating the case (clearly)…it wouldn’t be much fun otherwise!
While porn is an extreme example and pretty hard (impossible?) to redeem, sexual or relational fantasy can be beneficial I reckon. Perhaps a fear of fantasy in these areas betrays a view of sex and desire as being dirty or ungodly? I think it is part and parcel of being a human being.
I’m interested to see what others come up with…
Reply to reubenif no one has any ideas then maybe we can work out where to draw the line.
actually ‘reticence to allow fantasy’ would be better than ‘fear of fantasy’ in my last post
Reply to reubenI’d push for overruled.
I’m not going to approach this down the sex line – but interested to see you chat this through more.
I wonder if this possibly ties in with imagination? Would you argue it’s wrong to imagine things?
Cos Paul says in his prayer in Ephesians 3 that God can do more than we ask or even imagine according to his power that is at work in Christ Jesus.
Surely there’s a sense in which as we pray, we’re imagining that things could be different/better/more like God would want them and are asking God to act in such a way as to bring about what we’re imagining, (even fantasising??) about?
Reply to SamROh, and from a philosophical perspective, your argument is a ‘reductio ad absurdiam’ – Oh yes, I can see straight through your deductive ways Reuben…
Reply to SamRNo I don’t think imagining is generally wrong and it is certainly a kind of fantasy.
Empathy is another kind of fantasy i’d argue…it’s a pretty expansive area!
(keeping away from the sex line)…is imagining what it’d be like to embark on a campaign of world domination, taking no prisoners, biochemical terrorism etc right? Literature creates worlds like this for us to explore, imagine, consider and generally it is an enriching experience.
Is there a point at which we’d have to say that this kind of imagining is wrong? don’t know…but that’s part of the problem in ruling fantasy ‘right’ or ‘wrong’.
Reply to reubenYes, well spotted…!
Reply to reubenAlright let me put something else out there…to head the discussion somewhere. (i think i’ll post something a little more lighthearted next week!!)
the sleight of hand in my objection (i think) is the statement ‘playing make believe distorts expectations of reality’. I don’t think this is really true.
Mostly because it’s not how fantasy works. It seems to me that fantasy ‘works’ because we all have loves and interests and desires…dreams and longings and appetites. Fantasy seems to have an effect on such ‘loves’ (which i’ll use as shorthand for all the above from here on). Fantasy awakens them, bringing them to the fore of our attention and encouraging us to enjoy them for a bit. That’s why books are often better at communicating fantasy than movies – you can stop and spend time dwelling in imagination land as you please before moving on.
The point is that whatever ‘distorted’ expectations fantasy might allegedly cause already existed in us as our ‘loves’. The fantasy just enlivened them…reminded us of what was there all along if you like.
To be more pointed – it is for this reason that i think ‘fantasy distorts reality’ type arguments are not particularly strong in regards to things like romantic and sexually explicit material. Also it externalises blame when the problem is very much internal!
I think this leads me to say that no fantasy is inherently wrong. but some fantasy is going to bring to the fore things that one might prefer to keep very much in the background and so they’ll avoid certain subject matter as unhelpful, like Steve said.
Incidentally, if i’m right, this leaves genres like romance novels open to be enjoyed without guilt so far as one is able to critique (like tamie) and distinguish between loves that are awakened (rather than avoid awakening all loves one might posses wholesale).Why not enjoy the idea of a compassionate, kind-hearted man and so on.
Porn is in a different category being wrong for other reasons. but literature (books, movies etc) which explores sexual themes likewise ought to be able to be enjoyed without guilt given the same provisos as above…unless you want to chop song of songs out of your bible. Why not enjoy imagining being enthralled in sexual enjoyment?
Of course the warning ‘Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires.’ (Song 8:4) applies!
What do you think? have i missed something? am i being naive?
Reply to reubenHi!
Reply to IngridI stumbled across this as I was pondering how much imaginative/fantasy play to encourage my daughters with?
should I read them stories about fairies/ magic/ fantasy worlds? Or is this lying to them? Should I correct their imaginings? Am I lying to them? Should i stick to the imaging of what real/true things were like (like a bible story and the miracles in the bible or heaven) I know this is slightly off topic … but I am wondering too, where is the chalk line?
Hi Ingrid, thanks for joining the conversation and welcome to reubenland!
My first reaction to your question is of course kids (and adults) should enjoy imagination and exploring ideas which aren’t necessarily realistic. I argued that no fantasy is inherently wrong, though will want to show discretion about certain subject matter. (I think that is the answer i would give as to the ‘chalk line’).
As far as children and their development is concerned, i’m no expert but i believe it is highly beneficial for kids to encourage them in creative imaginative play.
With fairies/magical worlds etc. I would say (for yourself and your kids) that you would do well to ask: what sort of ‘reality’ does this book or movie propose? and how is it different to the real world? for example, does it propose a world where there are no consequences for wrong actions? a world where the ‘god’ does not love people like the god of the bible? You can also ask what are the ideals of this book or movie? how do they differ from god’s ideals for the real world? for example is the hero selfish and unkind? Is wealth and success the highest goal? …and so on. In this way, fantasy can be a way for you and your family not only to enjoy exercising your imaginations but also to discuss how the world really is.
I will ask one of my friends who might know more to post here if she has any other things to add…
Reply to reubenHi Ingrid!
I’m a psychologist, and have worked with children professionally in the past both in psychology and church settings. I also have a sub-major in children’s literature. So Reuben asked me to provide a response. This isn’t a comprehensive or definite answer on the issue – just a few initial thoughts.
Firstly, these are great questions, and definitely worth thinking through. Children’s minds are malleable and we need to make sure that we honour that by providing appropriate input. So here are my thoughts
1. This is an important developmental process for several reasons. It’s where children experiment with creativity and flexibility in thinking which lays an important stepping stone for formal operational thought (or adult, abstract thiking), later on rather than staying at the ocncrete stage. Also, when children interact in imaginative play, they “test out” certain rules about the world. For example, a child “playing house” or playing cops and robbers is re-enacting situations that they may later encounter in the real world. This is a way of practicing their responses in a safe way – how to experiment without the huge consequences that could come from making a mistake in the real world (e.g. imagine resisting arrest in cops and robbers vs. in real life).
2. We need to understand developmental processes according to children’s understanding of what is and is not real. At ages 3-4, children find it diffciult to distinguish between real and make-believe. They live in a fantasy world. Restricting this to only real-life situations can inhibit normal development processes, and also does not allow the child to develop discernment skills, as they get older and begin to determine what is actually real. So encountering make believe situations is important, so that as older children and adults, they can discern fact from fiction.
3. We need to be balanced in the way that we view “bad behaviour” in children’s imaginative play. Sometimes it is a way of determining what the effects will be (as above, e.g. cops and robbers). However, children’s play can also be a strong indicator of emotional difficulties or even a signal of previous trauma. Where behaviour is overly aggressive or sexualised, it may be worth further investigation. However by the same token, sometimes this is natural exploration. If in doubt, I suggest consulting your GP who may refer you to a child specialist who can give you a sense of the meaning of the behaviour.
4. In regards to what books and stories to read to children, I say read as much as you want! Stimulating the mind and imagination is good thing. But as the parent, you need to provide the safe place from which the child can explore that environment. So discussing what the children thought of the book (as simple as “did you like it?” or “what was your favourite part?”) opens up the conversation in case the child has any concerns.
5. Also, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with distinguishing between real and made up stories. You can say “this is make believe” or re: Bible stories “this really happened.” Don’t worry too much if your child doesn’t understand it – it may not be developmentally appropriate yet, but a minor comment such as this will prepare the child for the future, while allowing them to enjoy their present functioning.
6. As your children get older, you can make your own call on them reading more controversial books such as Harry Potter. From my experience, these books give children great joy and fire up their imaginative and love of reading – good things in my opinion! I reckon that as long as the lines of communication between you and your child are open, and your children can discern between real and make believe (which they should be able to do by the time they can read this level of literature – and you can facilitate this process anyway), then I see no harm.
These thoughts have come off the top of my head, so I’m happy if you want to come back at me or disagree with anything. Let’s keep chatting this through!
Reply to Stephanie